Intro: Welcome to the Masterful Coach podcast, with Molly Claire, where coaches learn skill mastery, business mastery, and life mastery at a whole new level. If you’re ready to create a meaningful coaching business that makes a difference, you’re in the right place. And now your host, master coach instructor, Molly Claire. Molly Claire: Hey, coaches, I have an amazing episode for you today. I have here with me, Kim Kiel, who is a copywriter extraordinaire. And I was so happy to connect with her for many reasons, first of all, because she had a reputation for being amazing at not only copywriting, but truly bringing to life, the person who she is writing for, and really bringing them into it. And I’ll have her talk more about that, of course. And also, I actually found this out after the fact that I love this about Kim, is that being ethical in her copywriting practices is a big deal for her, and she can tell you more about that. But I’m going to introduce you to Kim, she is amazing at what she does. She’s worked with my groups, helping them with their copywriting and she’s ethical, which is all amazing. So welcome, Kim. Kim Kiel: Hey, thanks, Molly. Thanks for having me. I’m glad to be here. Molly Claire: Yeah, this is so great. And I’m really excited about this because I mean, anyone running an online business and certainly coaches, there’s some amount of copywriting involved, right? Kim Kiel: Just a tiny bit. No, there’s so much copy to write when you’re running a business. Molly Claire: Yes, yes. And especially starting out, I know, not everyone is ready to hire a copywriter right away. And so that’s why I think it’s great that you can share what you do. And of course, people can connect with you if they’re ready for that. And also, I appreciate you just giving some tips to my audience. Kim Kiel: Yeah, I’d love to share. It wasn’t too long ago that I set out to become a copywriter, like a professional, freelance solo entrepreneur. I actually for many years, previous to becoming a business owner, myself was working in the nonprofit sector. And I was in the environmental movement, I was in the arts industry. And I was always on the front lines of communication, trying to help people take action, positive action, and to donate money. And so as a fundraiser in charities, I learned how to write persuasively, but not in a way that would make someone go, “Eek, ew,” it would make it be in a way that would make somebody like feel really emotionally connected, and then want to take some action like opening their wallet, or like signing their name on a petition or something like that. Then about four or five years ago, I’m sure any mom who’s listening will relate, I was juggling the child care juggle, I constantly had to keep finding new childcare because it would fall through, it wouldn’t match the schedule. And I had a kid who was starting kindergarten, and I lined up this brilliant day home to look after my son and allow me to continue working full time and she fell through and I was at my wit’s end, wondering how am I going to make this happen. And so I kind of quit on the spot and decided to launch my own business. And I kind of went with what I knew, which was how to communicate persuasively. And when I stepped into this online world, I discovered an entirely new ecosystem of businesses, business owners, the whole world of coaching, and I realized that I have a real skill that I can bring to the table that can actually help solve a pain point that so many business owners have, which is how do you write your own copy in a way that elegantly sells your services and your wares, but also gives the business owner time back so that they can focus on their zone of genius. So that’s a little bit about how I became a copywriter. Molly Claire: Yes. And I love that because you do copywriting for coaches. And then you also like in my groups, you’ve come and actually helped to give them guidance and direction and feedback. And I think that both save time, right, because whether you’re taking it completely off their plate or mostly off their plate, or helping them to give them some guidance, because I mean, how much time did coaches spend in fear not getting started and questioning themselves and there’s more time wasted with the copywriting process and actually writing and the copywriting process. Kim Kiel: It is so true. Even for copywriters, we spend a lot of time staring at that screen, wondering like what do we write, how do we write it? And especially for ourselves. Let’s just give everyone permission to say, it’s really hard to write your own copy, like whether you’re a professional copywriter or not, like it is hard. But there are lots of good tips and strategies. And as I became a professional copywriter, learning some of these formulas and frameworks, I realized I had really been missing out throughout my entire career, not knowing some of these frameworks and strategies that would have cut down the time, cut down the overwhelmed, and helped to bring back some joy. So whether I’m coaching people or teaching people in workshops some of those strategies and frameworks, or doing it as a one-to-one service for my clients, it all comes from a place of like, let’s cut down the overwhelm, let’s increase joy, and let’s get more sales. Molly Claire: Totally. And it’s like, copywriting is the way that many people first connect with their clients, right, is what’s written. And that’s how that initial…I always say that the most important thing in terms of your client having progress is the relationship they have with you. And that relationship is established right away with the way someone feels when they’re reading your message. It’s a big deal. Kim Kiel: Yes, whether they’re reading your message, whether they’re seeing how you communicate on video, whether they’re reading the caption you put onto social media. And I mean, we’re in this online world now, we used to be meeting people face to face, and they would connect that way. So now we need to just be really creative, and strategic in how we communicate to foster that same kind of connection. And there’s a few ways you can do that when you’re showing up, whether it’s speaking your message or writing your message to make sure you can create that know, like, and trust. Molly Claire: Yes. Okay, I love it. And I know Kim is going to be sharing really three specific ways to make your copy more readable. But before we dive into that…So Kim, you’ve shared kind of how you came to be here, tell my audience a little bit more about the ethical pledge that you’ve taken, and why and what that means. Kim Kiel: Sure. So I have pledged to… I don’t really want to call it an institution, but it’s more of a movement, called The Ethical Movement. And it is a community of people who have come together to commit to showing up online and doing no harm through our copy and through our messaging and through our sales, specifically. So we want to approach how we sell ourselves and our services, ethically, and without using overly dodgy sleazy, sort of, it’s called Bro Marketing Tactics, but it’s not limited to the bros, the ladies can get in on it as well. It’s just making sure you’re really approaching sales and connection with authenticity and with awareness of where your customer is. So you’re not going to trigger them into having a panic response to buying from you. So you’re not going to trigger them into investing in something that really isn’t going to help them, and that you’re using really ethical approaches to walking someone through that customer journey to the point of inviting them to work with you. Molly Claire: Yeah, I love that. Because I think there’s a big difference between connecting with people’s emotions in a way that compels them to work with you for like, helping this person making a difference, versus using just fear tactics, to get someone to make an impulsive decision. I don’t feel like it comes from a great place if you really want to build a meaningful, ethical business. Kim Kiel: I agree. And I think that’s what you bring through your coaching community, as well is that connection and coming from a place of service. And one of my own mentors has always said, “Sales is service. It’s an act of service. It’s how you share your gifts with the people who actually need your help.” And when we don’t actually ask for the sale. We’re withholding our love from our community where we’re not allowing people to access the gifts and genius that we have. But the challenge is, and especially for women, we may not don’t resonate with that sort of salesy type of marketing, or we have a belief that sales is really gross, and we don’t want engage in sales. But I think when you can start to think of sales, being of service and be an act of love, and being an act of joy and an act of exchange, then it gives us more permission to show up and sell in a way that actually feels authentic and true to our values and purpose. Molly Claire: Yes, yes, totally. I always teach about like, finding your unique sales energy, that’s that authenticity and being you and connecting with and loving people. And that’s the kind of sales that feels good, right? It’s the service-focused process. Kim Kiel: Yeah, and one of the tips that I have for making your copy a little bit more readable, is if you think about how would you communicate to your best friend. You wouldn’t talk to your best friend, like, “You better buy now you better come with me, we’re going to go shopping, like, let’s get this thing on the road, you have five minutes to make a decision, or I’m out of here, we’re never going to be friends again.” You don’t talk to your best friend like that. You’re like, “Hey, there’s a great sale going on, I think you should come with me. Let’s go see if we can find some new shoes,” like you engage in a conversation. You approach it with love, you approach it with delight, you create a little joy, and then you guys work towards the outcome. So I think one of my tips for making your copy more readable is to write in a way, communicate in a way as if you’re actually talking to your best friend or to a beloved friend. It just instantly changes how you would communicate. And also what words you would say. You’d probably start ditching some of that jargon and the industry speak that. Unfortunately, coaches have a tendency to get a little bit wrapped up in the coach speak. So it’s like, how do you explain to your best friend what you do? Molly Claire: Yes. Oh, my gosh, literally, I just did a whole call with my group on helping them translate coach speak into, like, what your clients are thinking? And it’s like we were talking about, okay, make the list of all the things you think they need and then step over here, what are they saying about this? How is this showing up for them? So yes, how would you say this to your best friend? And one thing I was going to ask you is, with regard to this, what do you see making that challenging for coaches to be able to actually do? Kim Kiel: To speak to their person like the bestie? Molly Claire: Yeah. Kim Kiel: Well, I think because we go to coach certification, we go to training, we get in our little bubble, where everybody is speaking that same language. And we believe it, and we know how beautiful that transformation is. It’s just that everyone outside that bubble, don’t talk that language. Molly Claire: Right. Kim Kiel: So my next tip is actually to go outside of your bubble and talk to your customers, do some research, join different forums, Reddit threads, visit different Facebook groups where people are having conversations about the challenges that they have that you solve, and you’ll hear the words that they use to describe like, what does overwhelm actually mean to them? Or what are their goals for finding their truest selves? They’re not going to probably use those terms, but they’re going to use terms that really describe the problems that they’re having. I also love, and part of my process with any client that I work with, and when I’m coaching people who want to copyright better, is to interview your own customers, or interview prospective customers and just have a conversation and you’ll hear the words that they say. And then if you use those words in your headlines, your subheads, in your calls to action or the button copy, when you want to get somebody to click a link to then either download your free resource or buy your item. That’s going to be a way so that you don’t fall into that trap of coach speak, or even sales speak. Molly Claire: Yeah. Okay. Well, I want to come back to what you just said, actually. I’m flagging that, but before I do, yes, it’s like, what are the words they’re using? Because when I read something, and it’s like, someone knows what is in my mind, or oh, I relate to what I’m hearing, right? So it’s, use the words that they use, speak those words, Kim Kiel: You want your customer or your potential client when they’re reading your copy, whether it’s a social post, or whether it’s your website or a sales page, you want them to be like, “Oh my gosh, it’s like you were reading my mind. It’s like you were in my head.” And when we see that as a buyer, it gives us a sense of trust, and it makes us feel safe that okay, you really understand me and I believe that you can probably help me solve my problems because you’ve articulated my challenge so well. Molly Claire: Yes, yes. Okay. I love that. So I wanted to come back to—because I’ve helped my clients a lot of times with coach speak, I haven’t really talked about sales speak. So coach speak is like when my clients come to me and say that what their niche is, is helping women manage their mind. And I’m like, “Those women don’t want help managing their mind.” Kim Kiel: Nobody is lying awake in the middle of the night wondering like, “When am I going to learn how to manage my mind?” Molly Claire: Right, right. And we think that, right, because in the coaching world, we are in the coaching world, and we’re getting messages about that, and we talk like that. So coach speak is that, right? It’s like, talking about things in a way that coaches understand but not every, you know, normal people understand. So talk a little bit about sales speak. Kim Kiel: That’s a good question. So sales speak to me would be the kinds of things that you see coming into your promotions tab in your inbox. So, it’s from a lot of the brands that are selling you: “Buy now! On sale! Get this now! Disappearing soon!” It’s very high pressured, lots of all caps, lots of exclamation points. There’s usually some scarcity involved, like “Only two left.” So it’s not necessarily true. Or you’re kind of questioning like, “Is that really true? Are there really only two left or is this promotional price really only available for the next 30 minutes?” We find on a lot of the online marketing, there are things called like a deadline funnel, which is where you might have an opt-in, like a freebie that you’re offering to your community. And you allow somebody to subscribe or exchange their email for that free resource. And on the thank you page, “There’s a limited time offer. Buy now! This is an exclusive opportunity to get this never-before-seen deal.” And there’s probably some blinking lights and a countdown timer, telling you that you only have 30 seconds to get this savings. But the reality is, if you actually signed up with another email, you’d probably get the same deal again and again. So it’s false scarcity. Molly Claire: Yes. Kim Kiel: It’s like a false deadline. And it’s a false use of a countdown timer. And it’s all meant to trigger this, like FOMO response in us. And that is like one of the rules that you would definitely not want to follow if you’re trying to be an ethical marketer. You definitely want to just…If it’s not true, don’t fake it. Don’t fake scarcity. Don’t fake “the doors are closing for the last time.” Just be just be real, because people want to buy from somebody who’s real and buy from somebody who’s authentic. Molly Claire: Yes, I have been exactly where you’re talking about. I’ve had that before. And you’re always wondering, is this really true? Like, is this really going to go away? And then I’ve had that thought, well, I can sign up with another email. And we did actually. So you know we have this big family, we’ve got eight kids combined. And I wanted to buy these, you know, this gigantic beanbags with the Ottomans. And I started looking into them. So I’m like, you know, when we’re all together, it’s kind of nice to lounge around. And I remember it was a holiday weekend, and I got on and it was like, you know, the Ottoman was free. And I was talking to my husband, like, “Maybe we should do it.” And I really thought it was like a special thing because of this. And then sure enough, anytime, any day, you can get on and it has a “limited time today only” offer for the free every Ottoman every time. Kim Kiel: And if you put something into your cart, and you didn’t buy it, then they’re going to show up with emails that say, “Oh, hey, you forgot to buy this. But we’re going to throw in that Ottoman for you just so you…” You know, like, it’s… Molly Claire: Yes, yeah. So here’s the question about that. So obviously, we want to say what’s true and be ethical. And I know that people sometimes need a little sense of urgency or a deadline in order to be compelled to move them forward. And sometimes I think it’s a good thing to help people move forward. So what’s your answer to that? How do we create that in an authentic and real way and in service to our clients? Kim Kiel: I think even just messaging them by saying, you know, “I’m going to really try to motivate you here, and it’s because I don’t want you to be sitting on the fence anymore. I know what kind of transformation this coaching service will give you.” So you just actually language it like, “If it feels like I’m a little bit pressuring you, it’s because I am, because I want you to take the action because I know how great the transformation is.” So that’s sort of one option. Another option is to actually have a real deadline. So if you do run a promotion, run it for a short period of time, that doesn’t necessarily mean that people can’t come in or buy that product or service another time, but maybe it is a limited time promotion, so that you can generate a bit of buzz and create some of that urgency. You can also actually limit the number of people who you bring into your coaching community. So if you want to be able to maintain a certain level of high touch and engagement within your group coaching program, for example, maybe you do limit it to 10, 50, 100 people, and then you can authentically say, “Look, seats are actually limited, and you won’t be able to get in until the next time we promote this.” Molly Claire: Yeah, I love that. And I remember, and this is maybe not related, but I did think of it. And I wanted to bring it up. I remember in some emails we were doing in a campaign a few months ago, that email where we really said, like, “make a choice either way. And if this isn’t right for you, then kind of like, great, we’re going to see you next week on our regular email, and we’re still here for you, and giving that permission.” So yeah, I would love for you to speak on that. Kim Kiel: Yeah, that’s a really important technique in a sales email. And I can’t remember what it’s called, but it’s basically like, inviting them to make a decision either way, and allowing your reader to know that either decision is the best decision for them. But they’re, you know, just make a decision. So you write your email, it’s a sales email, to get them to take the action, which you want it to be to join your program, your service. But you give them two links in the email, one link is like, “Yes, I’m in sign me up for your coaching service.” The other link is, “You know what, this isn’t going to work for me right now. But I’m going to continue to subscribe to your podcast, follow your blog, and access some of the free resources.” So just the act of making a decision is so empowering for the reader, it gives them a chance to be like, yes, I’m making a decision. And then everyone feels good. So you may motivate them to take the action to join your offer. But even if they don’t, they’re taking an action to stay connected. And you can still nurture that relationship on until they’re ready to make the step or until you have an offer that really resonates with them. Molly Claire: Yes. I love that. Because as I’m thinking about it, you know, I’m imagining sometimes, I think it’s true that if someone does feel a little too pressured, or there’s kind of this, I don’t know, it’s almost like there’s some extra energy in there. And that really just kind of drops the rope. And it’s like, it’s totally up to you. I’m here either way. I think sometimes that can help people to relax and make that choice moving forward, because it really shows them, oh, this is my choice. And now that I’ve cleared out a little bit of this noise or fear about the sales process, this is what I want. And I think also, when we make that choice to say no, even if that person never gives you a dime, never works with you in any paid capacity, you have just done a service for them, and giving them the opportunity to make a choice for themselves and telling them that it’s good for them to make a choice for themselves, no matter what. Kim Kiel: Yeah, because then they can go on to their next thing, whether that’s working on something different or finding a different coach, but you’ve released them into moving forward and not continuing to second guess like, did I make the right decision? Or should I or shouldn’t? Molly Claire: Yeah. Okay. I love it. Okay, so next tip…so that’s two. Kim Kiel: That’s two, yeah. So talk like you’re talking to your bestie and do your research. The third tip that I always love to share is The Rule of the You. So the word “you” is the most important word in your copy. And when I am reviewing copy, especially corporate copy, but it also comes up in a lot of coaches copy as well, there’s a tendency to be very focused on like, “me and my services. And this is what I did. And I’m certified by this body. And I can do this. And I can help you do that. And I will do this. And I’ll teach you this in my webinar.” And that is so focused on the service provider, the coach and not focused on the reader or your client. So if you can count on a sales page or on a sales email how many times you’ve said the words I, us, we, count the number of times you say you, you’re, yours. And if your I’s and us’s are outnumbering the yous and yours, you can go back and rewrite some of those sentences from the perspective of you, of the reader. So, for example, one of the edits that I’m constantly writing in my client’s copy is like, “I will teach you the three strategies for closing more sales,” and instead I swap it to, “When you attend this webinar, you’ll discover the three strategies to close more sales.” Just that simple change of removing the coach or the service provider out of it and putting in the reader instead connects and instantly turns corporate copy into friendlier, more conversational copy. So that Rule of You is really important. Now the caveat to using the Rule of You is you never want to assume the worst of your audience. So you don’t want to be like, “You’re struggling with this, you can’t get it together, you can’t figure it out, you can’t…” You don’t want to be to blame me in your “you” language. And that’s part of weaving in some of that ethical messaging, you want to approach that with a little bit more of a delicate hand. So it could be like, a lot of the clients who come to me struggle with confidence. And maybe that’s something you share. These clients that tell me they struggle with X, Y, Z, “And if this is something you can relate to, then then listen up, because here’s something that you really want to hear.” So you just are very, very careful about how you’re positioning that pain and that problem, you still want to mirror it so that they see you understand the problem, but you don’t want to blame them for having that problem. That’s just a little bit of a subtle nuance. Molly Claire: And what about even the idea of putting it out there as like a possibility, kind of like, maybe you are feeling something like this similar. Kim Kiel: That’s actually super powerful copywriting technique is to say, “maybe this resonates with you,” or “perhaps this is something you’ve struggled with,” and it just creates that window of possibility that gets opens up my guard, so that I can let you in and connect a little bit more with you. Molly Claire: Yes. Okay. Well, I love the Rule of You, first of all, because, well, it’s effective, right? Yeah. And I think it’s easy, because it’s pretty easy to go through after you’ve written and see how to make that adjustment. And the other reason I like it, just from a coaching mastery space, thinking about as I’m helping coaches with their skills, is too often we…Usually, when we’re getting stuck or feeling insecure in coaching, it’s because we are making it too much about us. Like, we’re wanting to have the validation, or “do they think I’m good at this. Do they think I’m the expert?” When our whole job as a coach is to empower our clients as the expert, everything is about them my feelings, or what anyone thinks about me in the session isn’t relevant, it’s about them. And so I like the connection with that, because I think it’s important for us to realize that, not only because it’s more effective, but also it actually helps us to stay focused on what’s most important, which is… Kim Kiel: I love that. I actually hadn’t thought about that connection either. So I’m glad you pointed that out. That’s really beautiful, actually. Molly Claire: Love it. Okay, so good. I would love to hear anything else you have to say as far as being ethical in all of this as well and ethical writing. So, I know you’ve woven some of it in but what are a few things that you would offer my listeners. Kim Kiel: I think I’m something that I want to just share, which is a little bit on people’s radar, but maybe they kind of forget when in certain environments. And it’s being aware of cultural words and language we use and something that’s called Digital Blackface. So, as you know, Molly, when I write emails for my clients, I like to use a lot of GIFs, so I like to infuse GIFs to make them more engaging, and to sort of help bring a little bit of entertainment to the emails. But when I’m writing for a white client, I am very mindful that I am not going to use a GIF that depicts a person of color. I’m very intentional about not choosing GIFs of, say, Snoop Dogg for a white client because that is a form of digital blackface. And it’s a very subtle approach to being ethical in your copywriting. But it’s just really important to be mindful of that because unfortunately, a lot of those gifts are like highlighting negative cultural stereotypes. And even though there may be funny, when it’s a non-person of color, using them, it’s considered digital blackface. Where this is particularly problematic and not a lot of people are talking about it is on Tik Toks and reels. So a lot of people are using the audios that are perpetuating some really harmful cultural stereotypes, and using them for entertainment and to be funny. But if the voice is very clearly or the audio is very clearly from a certain cultural group, that can actually be really harmful. So I like to flag that, digital blackface, as something to just be aware of and to choose your audio or your imagery very carefully. Now, that’s not to say if you serve a diverse clientele, you shouldn’t include stock images of your clients who are diverse, but we just don’t want to perpetuate any harmful stereotypes or tropes that are just not true. Some of the words we use, we should also be very careful of. There’s obviously words that we definitely don’t use anymore. But there’s some little sneaky ones like cakewalk, which I recently learned has roots in slavery. Grandfathered, whitelisted, these are some words like often when you’re writing your welcome email, you might say, “Hey, make sure you whitelist my email so that you get it,” and that phrase is actually not a very good one to use. So instead, swap it out for something like Safe Sender, add me to your Safe Senders List. So we’re just being mindful of some of those that language that can be triggering or perpetuate harmful stereotypes. So that’s just a little tip there. But again, I also don’t want people to be overthinking about it. And if you’re ever concerned, like, is this okay? Then just phone a friend, ask a friend to get somebody else to like weigh in? Is this actually okay? And you’ll probably be steered, right. But don’t overthink it. Just keep it in the back of your mind. Molly Claire: Good to be mindful of, because, I mean, these are things you just don’t really think about, right? Kim Kiel: Yep. The other thing I would maybe offer is, you know, just allowing people time to make a decision. We kind of talked about the deadline funnel with a countdown timer, you know, for a low ticket item or a free item, having a short amount of time to make a decision is probably okay. It’s like a BOGO sale, when you’re buying your shoes, like it’s a limited time, it’s a low-ticket offer, I’m okay with having it be that limited time. But if you have a four or five figure coaching package that you’re inviting people to step into, give them more time to make that decision, because so many of us have different money traumas and money stories that we’re bringing to the table that we kind of need to work through, and we need to feel safe to invest at that higher level. So it would probably be pretty bad for him to have a countdown timer when you have a $10,000 offer. Because it just triggers that fight or flight response. And it might make us make a decision that we later regret. And as a coach, you don’t want to invite somebody in who’s not a right fit, whether it’s financially or for another reason. And you want them to enter into that relationship with you from a space of possibility and expansion, not scarcity and contraction. So just being mindful of that timeline and runway that you give your people to make those decisions, especially when they’re at a higher price point. Molly Claire: Yeah. I love that. And as you were talking, I was thinking about how, you being ethical is important just because I think it’s the right thing to do. It’s like treating humankind, human beings well, and it also does reap the reward long term of: I think that’s how you build a quality business, where you have an energy in your business that you want. And that really is truly service focus. So I think those small things, doing the right thing in those small ways just has a big impact long term. Kim Kiel: And I think when you come back to that belief that sales is love, sales is service, and I’m connecting with you like I want to connect with my best friend and I’m talking to you from my heart to your heart, then you’re already going to be ahead of the game. And I know that copywriting and sales copywriting in general can be very, very overwhelming. And we get a little tripped up by it. Now adding this layer of like, “Am I ethical in my marketing?” We don’t want to overcomplicate it, I just want to offer your listeners that if you’ve written something, and then you ask yourself, “Ooh, is this a little shady? Or is this ethical marketing?” The fact that you’re asking the question, shows that you probably aren’t being really sleazy in your marketing. So the people who have the sleaziest messaging, are not asking those questions. They’re not saying, “Should I have a countdown timer,” they’re like, “Do it. We want to get rich quick.” And so that’s just to give yourself a little bit of grace, if you’re asking the question, you’re probably doing a good job. Molly Claire: Yeah. I love that. And this whole conversation, I mean, as we’re talking, it just feels like so much abundance and trust and goodness. And I don’t know, it’s so powerful, right, because it can be really easy to when we set these big goals and we’re facing our fears to get in scarcity and trying to use tactics to kind of get there. And I don’t know, this is just a great conversation. Kim Kiel: Yeah, it’s an important conversation. And I really want, especially coaches to be empowered to ask for the sale. And to know that it’s okay to ask for the sale, because the transformation that you create for your customer and your client is so important and so needed in the world, and it just trickles down through their family, their community. So by you asking for somebody to join your coaching program, you’re going to change not just their lives, but the lives of the people around them. So ask for the sale, sales is love. Molly Claire: Yeah, I love it. I know. Well, I always say like, when I was going through my divorce, and I was so worried about money, I am so glad that I paid what I considered good money for a coach, because I needed to make that investment in myself. And I’m grateful that I had the opportunity to pay the money to work with someone to help me because it served me long term. So I think we have to always remember that. I love that message that you shared. All right, Kim, any first of all, I want you to tell everyone where they can find you. And of course also sure any last words of wisdom. Kim Kiel: Sure. Well, people can find me on social. I’m Kim Kiel Copy in various different iterations. You can also link to everything from my website, which is www.kimkiel.com. There, I have a really simple but juicy checklist that people can download, which is all about some of these tips that we talked about, but even a few more to make your copy more readable and to help you ask for the sale. So it’s called the Magnetic Copy Checklist. So, anyone can get that, it’s super free. And yeah, just ping me on social. Molly Claire: Awesome. And I will have all of this in the show notes as well. Kim Kiel: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for having me. Molly Claire: Thank you so much, Kim, have a good one. Outro: Thanks for listening to the Masterful Coach podcast. You can check out www.thecoachingcollective.com for info about the ultimate program for coaches building a business. To find out more about Molly, you can visit www.mollyclaire.com.