the

masterful coach

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the

masterful coach

Podcast

PROFITABLE BUSINESS | IDEAL LIFE | COACHING SKILL MASTERY

How to go from Salesy to Genuine Human Connection

business coach business growth human connection sales calls Jan 29, 2025

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Mastering Sales Through Human Connection

For so many entrepreneurs who are starting out, it can seem daunting to figure out how to make a sale without being salesy. It is essential to understand that selling is serving and how to do it in a way that does not push people into anything. Your job in sales is to build a human connection and help people to make a decision.

Embracing Human Connection in Sales

The first thing to learn about sales is that sales are not transactional. We are learning how to engage people to do something that they may not want to do, but that gets them the result they are looking for. People are not buying the thing we sell; they are buying the outcome and the result. Building a human connection and listening to what people are looking for allows you to help people decide whether to engage or not.

The Power of Listening

As salespeople, the goal is to step back from being overly interested in showcasing what we have to offer and instead focus on being interested in what the client needs. We want to be interested in them, not show off how interesting we are. The conversations are not about you and what you have to offer; they are about the client. By asking the right questions and building a genuine human connection, you discover what truly matters to them and position your offer as a solution to their specific needs.

Coaching Through Conversations

Sales conversations mirror coaching sessions in many ways. Both require the ability to guide individuals through uncertainties and help them reach clarity. You are not pushing someone towards a yes or a no. You are supporting them in exploring what feels most aligned with their goals. You want to help them make a decision that they feel good about.

Overcoming the Fear of Rejection

Fear of rejection can often impact how you approach sales conversations. The anxiety of seeming pushy can deter you from offering value. You need to remember that the call is not about you; it is about your client. Rather than focusing on them saying yes to you and your product, attach yourself to what is in their best interest. A 'no' is not a reflection of your worth. It just means that particular offering isn't the right fit for the client at this moment.

A New Definition of Success

Success in sales doesn't solely lie in closing deals. It offers clients an opportunity to realize what is possible for them. This can mean helping them become more conscious of their needs or simply providing clarity on their next steps. When you focus on human connection and offering genuine support, sales become less about transactions and more about transformation.

Conclusion: The Future of Sales is Human Connection

Integrating human connection into your sales approach ensures that you are not just promoting a product or service, but genuinely improving the lives of your clients. Embrace sales as an opportunity to serve, and always prioritize the well-being and growth of those you engage with. By doing so, you foster trust, build lasting relationships, and ultimately drive meaningful success.

About Nic Cramer

Nicole Cramer is a distinguished Sales Conversation Coach, Keynote Speaker, and Corporate Sales Trainer, celebrated for transforming sales through human connection and strategic language. As the former #1 sales executive nationwide at a Fortune 500 company, Nicole now channels her expertise into coaching, where she empowers sales professionals and entrepreneurs to excel. Her approach focuses on integrity and the art of conversation, enhancing clients’ ability to close deals and build lasting relationships. Based in Nashville, Nicole leads TNC Speaking and Coaching, and hosts both a popular YouTube channel and a podcast, making her a prominent voice in sales and wellness communities

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Full Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] Molly: All right, coaches. I am so excited for this conversation with Nic Cramer, who is a sales coach. And I'm excited for so many reasons for all of you. I know that sales is not everyone's favorite topic. There are a lot of thoughts about Sales, a lot of feelings about sales. Um, but what I love about Nick and the way that you approach it is really thinking about it through human connection and really bringing, um, not just bringing a positive spin to sales, but actually appreciating and allowing in what a positive experience it truly is and can be so. 

Anyway, all that being said, welcome to the podcast, Nick. I'm so happy to have you.  

[00:00:51] Nic: Thank you, Molly. I am excited to be here and looking forward to our conversation.  

[00:00:55] Molly: Yeah, you know, um, I know we were talking a bit before we, we went live to record about how it can be tricky for someone when they're in a business now where they are. 

So I want to speak to that, but actually before we do tell my audience a little bit more about you from your own words, what do you do exactly and why do you love it?  

[00:01:22] Nic: Yes. Well, you hit the nail on the head right away with how people feel about sales. Nobody wants to be salesy and pushy. And that is a fear that a lot of people have, especially when they're stepping into being a business owner for the first time and, or maybe selling their own IP, their own. 

stuff for the first time, right? That's a little,  

[00:01:38] Molly: yeah, it's so different. Okay. We're going to, we're going to come back and circle back  

[00:01:42] Nic: because a lot of people have some level of a sales background in some capacity, right? But they were selling other people's stuff. They work for a company. They did something where there's a little bit more of a, Um, division between who they were and what they were selling. 

Not that it still wasn't with authenticity and integrity, but it feels very different when you're selling your own stuff, your own ideas, your own process. And I just want everybody to know, I 100 percent get how you feel when you have that. Stigma that's attached to sales of like, I don't want to be salesy. 

I don't want to be pushy. I don't want to be slimy because I've felt all of those things. I've been where you are  

[00:02:18] Molly: worst. When you have an experience like that, it is the worst.  

[00:02:22] Nic: It's the worst. And like, we've all been on the receiving end of someone who's been salesy. And to be honest for decades and decades and decades, hundreds of years, if you will, sales has been done traditionally in a way that didn't always feel good. 

And it was okay. For those of you who aren't watching the video, I'm using air quotes. It was okay to be tactic y and sales y because that was just the way people did things. Right, right. And there also wasn't visibility in the world the way that there is now with social media. So you could like, if you were a used car salesman, if you will, you could get away with strong arming someone or manipulating someone. 

And the world wasn't going to know about it. Cause there was nowhere for the world to go talk about it. Right. Like you kind of just got sold in that. That's what it was, but now in a world where things are very transparent, very visible and people know about it right away. And I think that's one of the best things that could have happened to sales because now we have to show up with integrity and with true passion and, and really understanding that selling is serving, but doing it in a way. 

That, that we're not pushing people into anything. We're helping them make a decision and it has to feel like their decision. So I'll start with that. And then I'll answer your question. Why am I the one who's talking about this? Because I have been that person that felt all those, all of those things. So for anyone listening who has felt that way and it felt uncomfortable around selling, I get it because I started my career as a teacher. 

For 15 years, I was a teacher. I taught high school math. And you want to talk about learning how to work for free. Go be a teacher for a while. That's all you do. Right? So the idea of selling yourself feels even more uncomfortable because you're like, I just stay after school and help kids for free. 

That's just what you do. Right? So there's a big mindset shift. A lot of, um, understanding had to go into what's actually happening in a sales process. And the way I learned that is I decided that, well, I'll say this. After 15 years as a teacher, I saw a lot of my friends that were in sales. It looked like a game to me. 

I'm a very competitive person. So although I didn't want to feel salesy, I thought chasing the carrot looks fun. And there's money you win money. If, if you, right. I had one thing that I didn't want to do. I didn't want to be salesy, but I did want to try sales. And so after 15 years of teaching, I went on a sales interview and the guy said, listen, I think you're great and I'd love to hire you, but there's 89 internal people who want this position and they all have experience and you don't. 

You've never sold anything. And I looked at him and I said, well, I've been selling math to high school teenagers for 15 years and nobody wanted to buy that.  

[00:04:47] Molly: I, you know what I was thinking when you said you were a teacher, I thought. Well, you want to talk about sales because you're having to sell those kids every single day on doing it. 

That's exactly it. Okay. I'm so sorry. I just, when you said that, I had to comment on it.  

[00:05:03] Nic: I'm glad you did because that is one of the reasons that I always tell that story. That was a very pivotal moment for me for two reasons. In the moment it was pivotal because it got me onto the next round in that interview. 

That guy literally goes. That's good. That's really good. I, yeah, good point. And so in the moment I'm like, cool, I'm onto the next round. But years and years and years after that moment, I can't tell you how many times that has really helped me remember sales is not transactional. I wasn't there were no transactions in my classroom. 

Those kids were not walking into that classroom to pay me to teach the math. As a matter of fact, they could have done anything to not be walking into that classroom and have to, right? So how do we engage people? How do we get that enrollment that buy in for people to do something that they maybe don't necessarily want to do, but there's an end result. 

There's something off in the distance that they are connected to that they do want. And what did my kids want? They wanted freedom. They wanted to graduate. They didn't even want the diploma. They just wanted what the diploma meant to them. It meant freedom. It meant independence. But in order to get there, there was a math class they had to get through. 

So how can I help them make a decision to engage in something that maybe isn't their favorite thing in the world, but it's helping them towards the end goal. And like, it sounds like your audience is a lot of coaches. Well, I got to tell you, whatever you are selling as a coach. Your people don't want to do that thing. 

They don't want 12 sessions on zoom. They don't want to do the squats and the lunges. They don't want to do the manifestation exercises. They don't want to do any of that. They want the result of those. And they don't want videos or worksheets. They don't want a course. They don't want any of that. That's not what they're buying. 

Right? My kids didn't want to buy the math. What they wanted to buy into was the idea that if they got through that class, it was one step further to them getting the independence and the freedom that they wanted. That's what we have to connect with, right? Is that people aren't buying a mattress because they want a mattress. 

They're buying a mattress because there's something, not that I'm saying anybody here listening is selling mattresses, but to give an example out of context. Right. Nobody's buying a mattress because they want the mattress. Right. Buying the mattress because They want to sleep well. Maybe they've got a lot of back pain and maybe they're facing a potential back surgery if they don't start feeling better. 

Maybe they have a snoring partner and this mattress has two different sides where like it, I don't know. I'm not a mattress salesperson. All I know is that nobody's buying the mattress because they want the mattress. Maybe if they sleep better, there's a promotion at work that they can get. Bottom line is we have to remember that people aren't buying the thing that we sell. 

They're buying the outcome and the result of the thing. And here's the most important thing about that too. Nobody's buying anything from us. Nobody wants to buy anything from us. They want to buy from us because, and we have to learn that because, and everybody's because might be different. So to answer your question about why it's me talking about sales, that was my first big sales lesson was, Oh my gosh. 

Sales isn't transactional. It's relational. And when we understand that everything about selling is not about selling somebody something. Nobody wants to be sold, but they all want to buy. Everybody wants to make a decision to buy. So what we really are as salespeople is just professional mindmaker uppers. 

We're helping people make up their mind about something that they want to do, but there's some hurdles in the way there's some limiting beliefs in the way there's some challenges in the way, whatever it is, there's some things in the way that they have not been able to remove themselves. And they see us as a leader. 

They see us as an expert. They see us as someone that they've looked up to in some way, someone that has some level of what they want in their life, energetically or, or, or, or, you know, in, in actual real life scenarios. And so they're coming to us because they want to be led. They want to be led towards something that they want. 

And our first job in a sales capacity is to figure out what it is that they want. What is that because? Because if we don't know what that because is, then we're selling something that we think that they need versus helping them realize that they want to buy something that they need and want. Yeah.  

[00:09:01] Molly: Yeah. 

Yeah. Oh my gosh. I have. So many things I want to say about this. Um, but I was thinking about, you know, my, with my clients and with my listeners as coaches, something I always teach my clients is that when you're coaching your clients, once they've already hired you. We are selling our clients on every call, right? 

That something is possible for them or that getting that buy in. Right. And so it's kind of like, um, you weren't exactly speaking to this, but it's this idea that. We're always, we're always selling people on things, right? All the time. It's like, if, if I think something would be worth someone's while I'm excited about it, I'm like, Oh my gosh, you've got to try this. 

And this is why. Right. And so I think the more we can normalize it and realize that, and, and I think kind of learn from the ways in which we naturally engage with people, where we are making those connections and quote unquote, right, selling them on something. I think we realized. Oh, wait, maybe the sales where there is a purchase involved, isn't as hard or as complicated as I think. 

And what I love that you said is about, you know, being that helping them make that decision because. And I think this is where there's quite a bit of skill and art to it. And probably I know you can speak to this because I just like, I don't ever want somebody to hire me if it's not in their best interest or if it's not really what they want. 

Correct. Right. However, if it is in their best interest and it, if it is something they want, but they're just afraid. Then I really have to be a good leader in that sales conversation to help them make that decision. What can you say about that? Do you have any specific advice or, or anything to my listeners? 

Because I mean, I think, I think that can be, that to me is kind of that like next level of sales, when you can be strong enough to be able to help someone make a decision when they want it. And if they know it's in their best interest and you do too. but they're on the fence.  

[00:11:25] Nic: That's it. So a couple things I'll say, you nailed it on the head, Molly. 

We do not want to sell, if you're, if they're yes. Actually means no, it was the wrong sale. If there are no actually was meant to be a yes, it was the wrong sale, right? We don't want to sell ice to a polar bear because a polar bear doesn't need ice. So we're not here trying to sell something to people that they don't want. 

And, and to be honest, we're not even really trying to sell people. We're trying to help them make a buying decision. That's all it is. We're putting ourselves in a position where we're asking good questions. We're finding out there because. Right. People don't want to buy things. They want to buy things because we've got to act interested, not interesting. 

And too many people go in and they try to do their sales pitch and they try, they do all the talking and they're like, it becomes about them, right? Yes. It becomes about them. They're like, how do I lay in the plane? How do I close the deal? Well, if you're doing it right, you shouldn't have to close the deal. 

The person will close themselves if you've asked the right questions and you've really consulted in the sales process instead of trying to sell something in the sales process. And quite often we get so in our head because when we're thinking on a sales call about what do I say next? What do I say next? 

What do I say next? You're making it about you. You're not even in the conversation and energetically that whether it's acknowledged or not that person can feel it. And so showing up unprepared to a sales call, which most people do. Is actually going to be the reason that you're not going to create the success that you could, and sometimes you'll have some successes still, but we want to show up able to guide someone into making a decision. 

And you brought up a really good point, Molly. You're like, what about the people who they know they want to do it? They're hesitating, there's some resistance, there's some fear there, but they really do want to do it. Right? And for the ones who don't, it's like, cool, then let's help them get clarity that it's a no. 

Cause that's really all we're doing. We're helping someone reach clarity in the conversation. If it's a yes, cool. If it's a no, cool. And, you know, I've even asked people on a sales call, I'm like, Hey, I hear a version of you that wants to do this. And I hear a version of you that's maybe a little hesitant to do this. 

Which version would you like me to support? Oh, that's  

[00:13:21] Molly: a great  

[00:13:21] Nic: question because I'm not here to talk you into something that you don't want to do. However, I would be remiss if I let you get off this call in the same place that you were when we started it. And my goal, and I will say this at the beginning of a conversation, my goal in our conversation is to help you get to a place of understanding and clarity on what your next best step is. 

That may be moving in a different direction. That may be some level of interest in some of the recommendations that I make that could benefit you. Either way, our goal is to get to a place at the end that you feel good about knowing that your next step is clear for you. And sometimes that's yes and sometimes that's no. 

And I want to go back to something you said about like, helping someone make that decision. So many, many years ago, I had a group program where, um, you know, the women were pretty new. They were, they were new coaches and they felt uncomfortable about that part of a sales conversation where helping somebody move over that hurdle, right? 

Because that's really all it is. There's resistance there. There's fear there, but they really want to make the decision. And the one woman said, I can't do that. I can't tell, like, I can't help somebody like if they're in resistance, like I'm just going to let them, like they've made up their mind, they don't want to do it. 

[00:14:32] Molly: Now  

[00:14:32] Nic: that same woman had just the weekend before gone skydiving. Okay. So just follow me here for a second. Totally a different story that I'm about to tell, but it's all related. Right. Okay. And she had gone skydiving. I said, and she had told us that story at the beginning of the, of the coaching call. And I said, so how did it feel when you were skydiving? 

She said, Oh my God, it was crazy. It was one of the best experiences of my life. And I said, and how did it feel right before you jumped out of the plane? She said, I was. Peeing my pants. I was so nervous. And I said, were you sure that you were going to do it? And she goes, I was pretty sure. And I said, so, what got you over the edge? 

She goes, well, I was tandem jumping. I was, it was my first jump, so I was strapped to the instructor. And, you know, he said, do you still want to do this? And she said, I think so. And he said, if you still want to do this, then let's go. And I said, what if you told him no? And she goes, Well, he would have let me stay on the plane. 

I said, then you've just described a sales conversation. She said, what do you mean? And I said, okay, well, let's look at it this way. I said, the ticket was bought for you for your birthday. Yes. And you agreed to go. Yes. That's your first micro commitment. You drove to the skydiving place the day that you guys were meant to skydive. 

Yes. You signed the waiver. Yes. You put on the gear. Yes. You went through the training. Yes. You willingly got on the plane. Yes. You willingly, as the plane took off, were still a part of it. Yes. And then right when it was the point of you making a decision. You were a little freaked out, but there was a guide that was there that said to you, Hey, is this still what you want to do? 

Cause if so hold my hand, I'll help you jump out of the plane. If you've changed your mind, you can easily go and sit over there and we'll land safely. What feels best for you. And you told him you wanted to jump. So he helped you get out of the plane. That's all a sales call is. And the reason I go through the, you bought the ticket, you showed up, you put on the gear, you went through the training, that's the micro commitments that people are giving you. 

When somebody signs up for a call with you, when somebody has been watching your content, when somebody has been engaging with your content, when they've said, yes, I like that person, I'll comment on their stuff, I'll like their stuff, you know what, maybe I'll sign up for their next free class. Maybe I'll sign up for a call with them. 

Those are all micro commitments. Nobody wakes up one morning and goes, Oh, I don't have anything better to do. What free calls can I sign up for? Right. Nobody.  

[00:16:54] Molly: Nobody's  

[00:16:55] Nic: getting on a call with you because they don't want what you have because they don't see opportunity and possibility in it. They're getting on that call because they're like, Oh, he wants to do this and I want to make sure that it's right for me and I want to make sure that it feels good to me. 

That's exactly all we're doing. And when someone is at that point with you in a conversation and they're hesitating to make the decision, it's not because they don't want to. And you can check in with them just like the skydiving instructor did. Does this feel like something that you want to do? Or is it something that you've changed your mind about or like I ask it? 

There's a, there's a part of you that wants to do this and there's a part of you that maybe is a little hesitant. Who would you like me to support?  

[00:17:33] Molly: And I'll tell you what I love about that question so much is that I know I can say that as a coach. And when I am talking with someone about potentially joining master coach training, I can, I want to be able to coach them and support them in making that decision. 

And it's like, this is, this is my belief and my approach to coaching. I want to always be an ethical coach and I always want permission from my client before I begin coaching them. And so it, it feels in a way like, like I I'm playing two roles, right? I am, I am the person helping them to, um, make a decision. 

And I also want to support them from a coaching aspect to look inside and see what's best for them. And so. That can feel, I will admit at times that can feel delicate where I do ask for consent, like, hey, can I push a little on this? Can I coach you on this? Knowing that we want whatever decision to be yours and to be in your best interest. 

But I feel like that question of saying there are, there's this part of you and there's this part of you, which part do you want me to support is the perfect way for me to have full permission to lean into either side. Without it feeling like I'm pushing them in a direction because I don't ever want to do that anyway, so I love that. 

I think it's brilliant.  

[00:19:09] Nic: Cause you are, you're a spot on with two things that you, well, everything you've said, but two things that stand out to me right now, number one, that's all we're ever doing. That's all a sales call is you are coaching someone. And if you, here's the thing, okay. For anybody who has a fear around sales, who anybody's like, I don't want to push them. 

Everything you do as a coach is about helping people make challenging and difficult decisions that they haven't been able to make on their own, because what the heck do you think you're going to, if they say yes to you and they pay you money. What the heck do you think you're going to do when you're coaching them? 

You're going to have to push them. You're going to have to help them see opportunity and see through limiting beliefs. You're going to have to help them make decisions that feel challenging right now. That's all you're doing on a sales call. And if you can't do it there, how the heck are you going to do it? 

Once they're inside of your container, right? If you're like, ah, it feels too scary right now. I don't want to push them to make a decision around money. Then that's your issue around money. That's exactly it. You not showing up and taking a stand for somebody else, because those are your own. Things that you need to clean up about money. 

And I'm not saying I don't have them. I'm not saying we all don't have them. We all have them. Money's the biggest story on the planet. We all have stuff that we can continue to process and improve our relationship with it. However, if you are not taking a stand for somebody in a sales conversation, then how the heck are you going to do it in any of your coaching calls with them? 

Yes. Because that's all you're ever doing. Like you said, you never stop selling. We never stop selling.  

[00:20:30] Molly: You're  

[00:20:31] Nic: constantly inviting someone to possibility. Once they've paid you, the selling doesn't stop. You've got to sell them every single time. Now, is there more of a buy in once they've paid? Yeah, because they've got some skin in the game. 

So they're going to show up a little bit energetically different. However, you're still going to have to be selling them all the time and reminding them what's possible for them because that's what coaching  

[00:20:50] Molly: is all about. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, when it, because I've been putting notes, as you've been talking about things I want to ask you about. 

And one of the things that I had jotted down here, you've really just hit on it here is How many of the people listening feel like they're bothering people on a sales call, right? It's like, Oh, well, I don't want to bother them. I don't want to. And, and so, first of all, if any of you feel that way, or you feel like a nuisance or a bother to them, just like you just said, Nick, that is your stuff to clean up. 

And we don't have to feel bad or embarrassed about it at all. It's not that you're doing something wrong, but just recognize it because something, something I believe is that. I am a coach at heart. And so when someone is coming to me in a sales call, I am already their coach. And my job as a coach is to do, to show up for my clients in a way that is in their best interest. 

And I want to help them. Right. And so what that means is that if this isn't in their best interest, Then doing my job is helping them to take that path as well, right? And so I just, I think there's, there's so much value and so much truth and clarity in what you're saying here, which is. When someone comes to you for a sales call, right? 

You are helping them to make a decision. You are supporting them in seeing what is possible. And just like in coaching sessions, you have in mind and at heart, what is in your client's best interest and. You, you are willing to do what it takes and show up for them so that they can do what's in their best interest, whatever that is. 

Right.  

[00:22:38] Nic: And that's the only thing that we ever want to attach to is what is the best interest of this person. And what I mean by that is too many people get attached. To a certain outcome of the sales conversation. Right. Right. And that's where they feel like they're bugging people. You feel like you're bugging people because you're expecting some level of a response that you want them to say yes. 

And we're never bugging anybody if we, if, well, let me say it like this. We might always be bugging people. They have a right to say no. People have a right to say no, it's not for me. And if you're not attached to the outcome, and you're not in any level of fear around rejection, then you don't see that as, ooh, I just bugged that person. 

You see it as, I gave them the option to say no. I gave them the right to refuse. I found out, because here's the thing, if somebody had something that they think could change my mind, change my life completely, something that would be incredibly valuable and amazing for me. And they kept it a secret and they never asked me, I'd feel a little bit of no, I'd be like, well, at least give me the right to say no, right? 

Why didn't you tell me about it? If it's not for me, it's not for me, but at least you let me know, Hey, there's something that might be a value. I'm not sure if it's for you, but it might be valuable for you. Do you want to learn more about it? No, I'm good. Okay, cool. No big deal. Move on. You haven't bugged them. 

You've given them the opportunity to say, no, it's not for me.  

[00:23:56] Molly: Let me ask you something. Do you think that if someone is. If there's a coach listening right now and and maybe they relate to this feeling like they're bugging someone or not wanting to push something on people and and what you're suggesting is giving people the opportunity to say no. 

Have you seen in working with people any element of If it's hard for me to say no, then is it uncomfortable for me to offer that up? Because I will believe that it will be hard for that person to say no. Do you know what I mean? Is that part of us with us feeling like we people please, or we have a hard time saying no, or we feel uncomfortable and then putting that on people and therefore not giving people the opportunity to say no. 

Which again, is your own  

[00:24:48] Nic: stuff that you're letting get in the way based on your own perception, your own feelings. And you know, one of the mentors that I really like, his name is Myron Golden. He says this a lot. He's like, if you want to be better at selling, be better at buying. Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent true. 

Yes. So true. And, and also, let's just speak for a moment about what coaching actually is. And if we believe in the value of coaching, then we better be investing in ourselves at all times. And like, I know people One hundred percent. But like, no, if you aren't living your truth, then you are out of integrity with what you are asking other people to do. 

I'm not saying that there's a certain amount you have to do or a certain person that you have to work I'm not saying anything. What I am saying is if you believe in the value of what you're selling, then you should be living in integrity with what that looks like so that you are living the example of what you are asking other people to do, because people don't do what we say. 

They do what we do. Even if they don't see you. In a coaching container, energetically, the way you show up is so much more powerful when you are living the value that you are also talking about and asking others to do. So that can, I've seen that happen a lot, especially with new coaches. They're like, I just don't have the money to invest in myself yet. 

It shouldn't be any surprise why you're having trouble in sales conversations, asking other people to invest in themselves.  

[00:26:05] Molly: No kidding. No kidding.  

[00:26:07] Nic: Yes. You're saying Do what? Do as I say, not as I do. Well, I'm not there yet. I don't have the money yet. Well, yeah. Be resourceful. What do  

[00:26:15] Molly: you, what do you think that we're all right. 

It's like, yeah. Do you believe in that, that it's gonna provide that return or not? Yeah, exactly.  

[00:26:22] Nic: Yeah,  

[00:26:22] Molly: exactly.  

[00:26:23] Nic: And everybody has to make the decisions that are best for them. However, it's really hard to be asking people to do something that you yourself. energetically are not representing within.  

[00:26:34] Molly: Yes. And I think, so two things that came to mind. 

Number one is totally agree. Like if we are, if we are touting the value of coaching and the importance of whatever it is we're offering, we better be doing that in our own lives. Or we just, we have a weak argument. We're not really, like you said, in integrity, which makes a difference. And the other thing, you know, what first came to my mind when you talked about, if you want to be better at selling. 

Right. Being, I don't, I'm not sure the exact words better at buying. Is that what you said? Yeah. Yeah. And, and something I'll say that, that years ago that I really made this shift that made a huge difference is I started noticing how grateful I was to pay people well for services. I really appreciate it. 

And so, you know, this is like a small thing. If we're going around and we're always worried about, Oh, how much is this going to cost? Or I don't want to pay for this or whatever. What if instead we look at, you know, when, when my, the guy comes to mow my lawn. I am so grateful that I don't have to worry about it and that he does a fantastic job. 

And every time I send him the money for it, I feel so happy and grateful to be able to pay him. And when, you know, and, and even, you know, expenses that are more what we would consider luxury or that are, that are just really amazing services that come from other human beings that make our life better. 

What a delight to not only pay them, but to pay them well. And it makes a huge difference just in how we feel about the exchange of money, the flow of money back and forth.  

[00:28:10] Nic: Yes, a hundred percent. Like that is one of the biggest things, but I think. What I mean when I say become a better buyer and what I know, you know, Myron means it's like, be that person that's happy to pay others for doing this. 

Totally be not just a better buyer. Like you bought, I'm not saying go out and just spend money, but like be an appreciation for what gifts you are receiving from making that investment. Because, you know, I think a lot of times, and you brought up a great point, Molly, people are like, what am I going to get? 

What is included? Well, like, what is this? And you're looking at like, is there an ROI and will I get the ROI in this certain amount of time then don't make the decision. I'm not saying we shouldn't be looking at getting a return. However, I think too many people are focused on one kind of return and only one kind of return. 

And if you're investing in yourself in any level, regardless of what kind of coaching it is, then you better be focused on who do I become from this investment, and if you're not making the investment from that mindset, from that belief, who do I become? Then it might not be right for you. If you're not thinking outside of the box like that versus just, well, how many zoom sessions do I get? 

And do I get private time with you? And, and what do I get here and what it, yes, all of that might be important because you want to make sure it works with your schedule and it's the right. It's yada, yada, yada. But like I said, no to something recently, because a lot of it was self directed. A lot of it was like a DIY portion of what the investment was that I was looking for. 

And that's not the type of thing that I'm looking to invest now. I need a little bit more proximity in terms of mentorship. So what I was looking for, it wasn't the right fit. It wasn't that it wasn't valuable. It wasn't valuable for me and what my needs are. And so when we're looking at making investments, is, is it the right fit for me? 

And. Who do I become and that from a selling perspective is also how we want to sell. It's not, you're not selling 12 sessions on zoom. You're not selling a mattress. Let's go back to that. You're selling what that person wants to become, who they want to become, what possibility they see in their life, because they've elevated themselves in a way that they couldn't do on their own, which is why they're looking at getting that support from you in that area of their life. 

[00:30:10] Molly: Yeah. And, you know, when you brought up the mattress example, again, I was thinking about, this is the, I'm imagining, uh, A mattress salesperson that's telling me about the technical pieces of the mattress and the fabric and whatever knowledge they have, which is only helpful if you're actually making a real world example as to why it's going to make a difference. 

Right. But it's like, it's, and that's kind of what coaches can get caught up in, right. When we're, when we're getting in the details of trying to. Well, here's what I'll say. If, if as a coach, you are focusing on the technical details and pieces that have no relevance to your client in their mind, and they're not even thinking about it, it's wasted breath and it's taking away from what's going to be impactful. 

And the other thing is, I think, oftentimes, when we are getting caught up in, well, it's this many sessions and it's this and it's this and this. That's when we are making it about us, right? It's when we're feeling some sense of insecurity or worry or wanting to prove the value. And so not only do we need to take a look at that for ourselves, but we're missing the mark. 

And I think it always goes back to understanding, you know, just like you've been saying, understand the human being that is in front of you, understand what are they needing and what are they wanting and how, as their coach in this moment, can I come together with them? And help them find the solutions and make a decision to step toward those solutions. 

That's really what it's about. It's not about the coils and it's not about the sessions or the length, right?  

[00:31:54] Nic: Yeah. It's know what you're actually selling because to your point, Molly, you're going to get caught up in trying to sell the things that aren't what people are actually buying. And then it just sounds like noise. 

It just sounds like content. And, you know, we have this saying that content. before context is just noise. If you haven't bothered to find someone's context, and that goes back to what I said earlier, they're because what's there because what's their reason for buying. And if you don't find that out, you're selling something to them that has no value. 

They're not listening. It just sounds like noise. The example I gave with a client of mine the other day, Is she was like, but this was so valuable for this person. I don't see why they didn't see what was in it for them. I said, how do you know it was valuable for them? Well, because it's what they need. I said, do they think it's what they need? 

And I said, here's the thing. If you walk in to a car dealership, cause you're looking to buy a car and the car salesperson is like, Ooh, this car over here has a V8 engine. And if you check under the hood, it's great. And you might be sitting there going, well, what's the sound system? Like, are there heated seats? 

Is the car white? Like, you're missing the mark because you haven't bothered to ask the context of what's important to you. If somebody comes in and they're looking to buy a car, what's important to you about getting a car? What has you coming in here today? What has you interested in maybe looking at a car? 

How's your current car running? What's your experience with your current car? What are some of the features you like about your current car? Never in any of those questions have I said anything about my cars and how great my cars are. We don't want to go there yet. We want to find out what's important to you. 

Why are you here? Why are you in this conversation? And sometimes they might be like, Hey, I'm just looking around. What questions can I answer for you? That'll get you closer to making a decision about what you want to do next.  

[00:33:32] Molly: Yeah.  

[00:33:33] Nic: Like we have all the control and sales conversations. If we remember that we're not auditioning. 

Yes.  

[00:33:39] Molly: If  

[00:33:40] Nic: we remember that we are not attached to a certain out, it's not about how do I get this person to say yes. Ew. The same person that doesn't wanna be salesy comes to me all the time and they're like, how do I lay on the plane? How do I get them to say yes? Why don't you back off a little bit and stop being so salesy. 

How do you, how do you commit to the best and highest outcome for everyone in the conversation? That's the outcome I want you to commit to. Yes. Not to getting a yes. Not to getting a no, but ultimately how do you leave that person better off than they were when you first started the conversation? And sometimes that's just getting them a little bit further to clarity because not everybody's in a position to buy. 

Yeah. And you're like, well, then why did they sign up for the sales call? Why don't you ask them that at the beginning of the sales call? Why don't you find out, Hey, what will make our time together success for you? Well, I'm just looking to understand a little bit more about what you do. Great. What questions can I answer that will help you get a little bit closer to making a decision about what's best for you, or if they say, Hey, I'm here to buy. 

I like what you do. I like what I've seen of yours online, and I know you've got this new offer and I want to find out if it's right for me. Great. What questions can I answer about whether or not this offer might be right for you?  

[00:34:44] Molly: Notice  

[00:34:44] Nic: what I did in both cases. Great. You tell me what  

[00:34:47] Molly: you need  

[00:34:47] Nic: to know to get  

[00:34:48] Molly: you a little bit. 

I remember I went to this one sales conversation where I pretty much I, I, it was just for me, it was a matter of just finding out the cost. I already wanted it. And I got run through quite a sales experience. It was like on and on and on. And it was, it, I mean, it was just missing the mark. And then it was kind of like, well, maybe I don't want to buy this because it seems like they're missing the mark on this. 

If they're missing the mark on this, maybe the program, this is the mark. So,  

[00:35:19] Nic: Oh, I have to say this real quick, Molly. I had an experience just like that a few weeks ago. And it was the same thing. And you To each his own, but transparently speaking, transparency. I don't know if that's the right. We currently, if. 

If there is no information like pricing about something, then quite often, that is why people are getting into a conversation with you. Cause they just want to find out a little bit more about, well, what is the price? What's the investment I'm looking to make? And we can find out why they're there. If we ask at the beginning of the call. 

And so a couple of weeks ago, I had that same thing where. I saw something online. I was interested. I signed up for a call, but I really just wanted some more information about what the investment was for this program. And I wanted to learn a little bit more about it. And because I'm a sales coach, I also kind of was two people on that call. 

I was the observer how they're handling this, but also the prospect potentially interested in purchasing it. Now, let me just tell you, it took her and I wouldn't recommend that everybody does this on every call. It took her 90 minutes to finally reveal the price to me. Yeah. Yeah. 90 minutes. And what I mean by that is I, because people are like, you stayed on it for 90 minutes. 

I'm like, listen, I was there as an observer as well. It was very interesting to me to see how it was handled. And we get to the end and she goes, um, she said, you know, what the investment was. And I said, okay, well, thank you for sharing that with me. You know, I'm going to think about what I want to do. And I'm not sure that this is something in the near future for me, but I definitely, you know, I, I appreciate your time. 

And she goes, well, you were on for 90 minutes. There must've been something like. You know, that kept you on for this long. And I said, yeah, it took me that long to get the price from you. I asked her in every other way before that I was like, what is this? Like, what would my investment be? And she was like, well, what are you interested in making this investment for? 

Like she just, and I'm all for asking questions. However, she found out in the first five minutes of that conversation, whether or not I was going to be a buyer and I was not, and I would have told her that from the very beginning. She didn't ask me why I was there. And what I do is find out what the investment was because it wasn't anywhere publicized. 

[00:37:20] Molly: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.  

[00:37:22] Nic: Right? And so I just wanted to know, and so a lot of times if we aren't asking those questions at the beginning of the sales conversation, we don't actually know why somebody's there. Right. And you need to find out. You need to find out. The most expensive thing, this is probably one of the most powerful things we could say in this conversation, the most expensive thing anybody can pay you with is their time and attention. 

And if somebody has given it to you. In a sales call. Remember, let's go back to something I said earlier. Nobody wakes up one morning and goes, ah, I have a empty calendar today. Let me see what free calls I can sign up for just for fun.  

[00:37:53] Molly: Nobody's  

[00:37:53] Nic: signing up for your call. Cause they didn't have anything better to do that day. 

We all have 24 hours in a day, seven days in a week. And our time is important. And it's the most valuable thing we can give to somebody else. If someone has given you their time and attention in a conversation, you sure as heck better find out right off the bat, why they're there. And if you don't, then you are missing the mark and you shouldn't be in question at the end when they didn't buy. 

Maybe they weren't there to buy, but you could have found that out from the beginning. Okay.  

[00:38:18] Molly: This is so good. I feel like maybe we need to have you back on. We're going to wrap up this episode today. Um, and in just a minute, I want you to share any last thoughts and also where, where, um, you know, those listening can find you. 

Um, but one thing that I will just say to all of you listening, it's like, I tell, I tell all of my clients this all the time, those of you listening and my master coaches, and those of you who really. actually help people, actually help them to be able to have a totally different experience of their life. 

Please, you know, remember that and keep in mind that this truly is about them and what is possible for them. In a sales conversation. It is not about you. It is not about how you look. It is not about how you present. It is truly about understanding the human being in front of you and being willing to speak up for and stand up for what is possible for them. 

So, um, Nick. What are your last words of wisdom? Anything else you want to share? And then also where people can find you, it would be fantastic.  

[00:39:29] Nic: Yes. So, well, let's start with that. Cause that's easy. You can find me on Instagram. That's where I'm the most active I'm on all the platforms, but I am quite active on Instagram. 

I am at the Nicole Kramer. And if you like any of the questions that I shared today, as Molly and I were having a conversation, I do have a free gift for you. It is a list of 23 questions that sell.  

[00:39:50] Molly: Oh, everybody go get that. Everybody go get that. I'm going to go get it right now.  

[00:39:55] Nic: Yes. It's a list of 23 questions that are very powerful to use in a sales conversation that help people make decisions. 

It would be my gift to you. Just reach out to me on Instagram and just say Molly Claire, or, uh, I listened to you on Molly Claire's podcast and would love the list of questions and I will be happy to actually, you know what, let me take it one step further. Tell me one thing you learned as you listen to the podcast, because I would love to hear one of your favorite takeaways is, and, uh, and I'm happy to share that, that with you so that you can have some powerful questions to you. 

So we'll start with that. And then, there's so many things that I could leave everybody with, and I, I do feel like, um, you know, it, it's important that we all understand how powerful sales is and that it really is a gift. Selling really is serving. And one thing I'll say is, you know, when people are like, I don't want to be salesy, I don't want to be pushy, then stop making it about you. 

Why are you making it about you? You're, you're so worried about how you feel that you're ignoring the fact that there are people out there. You know, to Molly's point, you have a gift. You have something that can change someone's life. And here's the thing. There's 8 billion people on the planet. You're not meant to change all 8 billion of them and not all of them are right for you. 

So get over yourself thinking that rejection means something about you. When somebody says, no, it's not about you. When somebody says, yes, it's not about you to Molly's point. What they're actually saying yes to is the possibility that they see in their life. And you're just the vehicle that helps them get there. 

When they say no, it's not no to you. It's that they're not willing to prioritize this right now in their life, or maybe you're not the right fit for them. Either way. It's not about us. It's about what's possible for the other person. And if we remember that really selling is just serving and we're just offering somebody the opportunity, if it's right for them, um, they can make a decision, right? 

We help them make a decision, whether it's right for them, but. The way we do that is by acting interested, not interesting.  

[00:41:33] Molly: I love it. Thank you so much. This has been fantastic. I recommend all of you right now, before you forget, go to her Instagram and ask for that list of questions. And I know as soon as we're finished here, I'm going to go, I'm going to make sure to get my hands on it too. 

So thank you so much for being with us.  

[00:41:52] Nic: You're welcome. Thank you for having me.  

[00:41:54] Molly: All right. I'll talk with you all next week. 

 

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