Molly Claire 00:39

Hello, everyone. Welcome to this week's episode, where we're going to talk about what's really stopping you from speaking up. Today's episode is part one of two, where I am speaking with Sara Bybee Fisk, who is a friend and colleague of mine, and she is a coach who helps women to be able to speak up, helps them to have those hard conversations. And in today's episode, that is part one of these two episodes, we're really taking a deep dive into why it's so difficult for us to speak up to begin with, why it's so difficult for us to have those hard conversations, especially when a part of us knows that it has to happen, that it's inevitable. So I hope you love this episode as much as I loved having this conversation with Sara. She is brilliant. And by the way, next week's episode is part two, where we're gonna talk more about the how. Sara's going to be sharing some specific steps on that episode, but first, let's get a better understanding of why it's hard for you to speak up, and start to think about what could be different going forward. Let's get started. Hey, everyone. Welcome. You are going to love today's guest. I'm so excited to have Sara Bybee Fisk here today. Hi, Sara. How are you?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 02:11

Hey, Molly. I'm so excited to be here.

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Molly Claire 02:13

This is so great. So I met Sara a while ago. The last time we saw each other was quite a while back, but I know Sara, I followed her work, and recently I saw a podcast interview sh- where she was featured, and it just brought you right back top of mind, and I thought, "I've gotta have Sara on the podcast." So Sara is here, and Sara and I today are going to be talking about how we speak up. Part of the work that Sara does, a big part of the work she does, is helping women to be able to speak up and understand why we struggle to do that, and that's what we're gonna dive into today. So welcome, Sara. Tell the audience a little bit about who you are and what you do in your own words.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 03:00

I am a Master Certified Coach, and I love coaching. I love helping women learn how to have the hard conversations that are taking up a ton of their brain space and their energy, and they haven't had the conversation yet. Like, everything's internal. They're rehearsing. They're trying to find the right words. They're waiting for the right mood. They're walking on eggshells. All the while, this weight, this overwhelm of needing to say something but not being able to is really taking a toll on them.

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Molly Claire 03:30

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 03:31

And so that's the niche that I have chosen to work in, because I truly believe that the most important skill a woman can have is the ability to have a hard conversation.

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Molly Claire 03:42

Mm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 03:42

Because what that means is that she is never stuck in any kind of dynamic or relationship or situation that feels out of her control. I think all of us can relate to, I jokingly call it, like, a, a hostage situation, right? Where you wanna say something, but there's a part of you that feels like you can't, and so it feels like you are just trapped in a situation or something going on at work, or a situation or dynamic with your child, with your mother-in-law, with your neighbor, with a friend, and you can't speak up, and it, it feels so terrible. And I lived with that for so long, that once I figured out what I needed to learn and learned it, the freedom that I feel now, because I just know there's nothing I can't talk about it.

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Molly Claire 04:29

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 04:29

Nothing that happens that can't be addressed. And so that's what I want for every woman and man listening, and especially women, because I really believe that right now the biggest problem that we have in the world is that there are not enough women who feel safe and confident enough to speak up about the relationships that they wanna be in and the world that they wanna live in.

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Molly Claire 04:53

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 04:53

And so I think this matters from the dinner table all the way to global politics, and women in particular speaking up, I think we need more of it. So that's why I'm here.

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Molly Claire 05:06

Absolutely. Well, I'm, I'm even more excited now that I hear you say all of this, for so many reasons. So those of you listening, I think what, what I wanna ask of you as you are taking this information in today is to really think about where this shows up for you. Because one of the things, Sara, as you were talking, I was thinking about a few things, and one is that there are plenty of women who present as confident, as strong, even as outspoken, and yet they still struggle to speak up, which I know we're gonna talk a little bit about. That came to mind for me. And the other thing that just really hit me as you were talking is that for me, my own struggle, what I notice is usually the ways in which I've struggled to speak up, I haven't even realized they were there.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 06:06

That's right.

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Molly Claire 06:07

Like, it hasn't been ... until I have felt just that word you said, right? Where I felt stuck, I felt heavy. I've had struggles in, you know, mental, emotional, physical health, whatever. And what I've learned through, over the years of all the internal work is that long ago I learned that my needs didn't really matter, and I couldn't really speak up, and if I did, there was no point in doing so anyway, right? And so I, I bring all of this up because, yes, sometimes it can be obvious when someone's struggling to speak up. Sometimes it can feel confusing to us because we feel strong and confident and open, and yet there's this part of us that doesn't. And sometimes it can actually be pretty hidden because we don't even realize we are silencing ourselves, right?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 06:55

Yes. Yeah.

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Molly Claire 06:56

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 06:56

A couple of things that I want to say right off the bat. So it is very, very common that the woman that I talk to is very capable.

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Molly Claire 07:07

Yeah. I bet.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 07:07

She has been balancing, she's been balancing a lot of things for a lot of people her entire life. She is dependable. People rely on her. She gets a lot of shit done for a lot of people, and that's something she's proud of. It's helpful. She loves to help the people around her, and it's how she has been programmed to be, and we're gonna get into that programming in just a second.

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Molly Claire 07:30

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 07:31

But what she starts to notice is that as the years go by and she is supporting other people, and showing up for them, and doing things for them, and she's the initiator. She's often like, "Okay, friend group, when are we gonna get together? Okay, family group, um, who needs what? How can I help you with the start of school, with your dentist appointment, with..." And at work she's often the one who is called on to do a lot of extra things because she's just so good at balancing all these things.

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Molly Claire 07:57

Yeah, yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 07:58

And at a certain point she starts to think, "Well, wait, is anyone gonna show up for me the same way? Like, why am I not getting the same kind of support and attention that other people, that, that I give other people?" And it, part of it is because she is so capable that everybody's like, "You know what? Molly's fine. Molly can do it."

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Molly Claire 08:20

Right.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 08:20

"Molly's amazing. Molly doesn't need help. Molly is so incredibly put together, she can handle it." And so this ability actually makes her invisible to other people because she's just so good at keeping all the balls in the air-

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Molly Claire 08:37

Wow

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Sara Bybee Fisk 08:38

... and, and, and everything going. And so that's part of it.

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Molly Claire 08:42

Well, and sometimes in my experience, invisible to herself because-

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Sara Bybee Fisk 08:48

That is right

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Molly Claire 08:48

... she's diminishing her own needs. She feels invisible to herself, too.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 08:53

That's the second part I was gonna talk about.

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Molly Claire 08:55

As I'm saying she- I'm like, I mean, I certainly don't relate to any of this.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 08:59

Yeah.

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Molly Claire 08:59

Except I do.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 09:01

Yes. And so what happens is she has just been like this for so long that it's just the way things are. It's the wallpaper.

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Molly Claire 09:09

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 09:09

And then she starts to notice, though, that there's some resentment that is starting to creep in. There's some loneliness. There's some irrational thinking of like, "Gosh, I, I don't know what's wrong. Why am I like this? Am I being too demanding? Am I too sensitive? Am I too picky?" And so there's another layer of, like, self-blame. "Why can't I just..."

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Molly Claire 09:32

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 09:33

Wh- why does this matter so much?

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Molly Claire 09:35

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 09:36

And so that kind of obscures it as well. And so she has just been like this for so long that you're right, she's invisible to other people, and in a really big part of it she is invisible to herself.

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Molly Claire 09:49

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 09:49

Until the resentment and loneliness start to show up, and they get so big that they either start coming out sideways and she doesn't like that because she wants to be a nice, kind, thoughtful person.

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Molly Claire 10:03

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 10:04

But she also doesn't know what to do with this growing resentment and anger and irritation and frustration that she can't really put a finger on.

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Molly Claire 10:13

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 10:13

And then there's also, the other side of it is some loneliness.

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Molly Claire 10:16

Mm, mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 10:17

Where she looks around and she wants to be supported. She wants to be taken care of. She wants to be checked on in the same way, but she doesn't know how to ask for that, and it actually can feel uncomfortable to even think about asking for that because she has been that for so many people.

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Molly Claire 10:35

Yeah, yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 10:36

And so it's really confusing.

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Molly Claire 10:38

Yeah, yeah. And I, it's like I have a whole backstory we can go into maybe in another episode is, like, how some of this was highlighted for me specifically in my life. But something I want to just bring up is how oftentimes, just as you were talking I was thinking about in my dating life right now in my life, right? Because I meet people, and I think, I mean, I don't, I don't know what I seem like from the outside, right? But they may see me as, like, pretty strong, pretty capable, right?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 11:11

Mm-hmm.

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Molly Claire 11:11

Like, I've got my, I've been a single mom, I got my business, whatever. And it can be, and they can assume then that if I needed something, or if something was hard for me, or if I didn't like something that I would speak up about it. And what I've learned and what oftentimes in my dating experience, it's like I have to communicate that that's actually a little bit hard for me, and it's nice for me to ask from my partner, "Hey," like, "help me with this 'cause I'm still learning how to feel comfortable speaking up." You know what I mean?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 11:50

That is the second confusing thing.

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Molly Claire 11:52

Okay. I'm so glad we could do just that.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 11:54

You, yeah. You, you just, yeah, you just named it. So that first confusing thing is how her capability makes her invisible to herself and to people around her.

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Molly Claire 12:02

Yeah, yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 12:03

The second confusing thing is she can speak up for other people.

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Molly Claire 12:08

Absolutely. Absolutely.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 12:11

Right?

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Molly Claire 12:11

Especially my kids.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 12:12

That's right.

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Molly Claire 12:13

Or the people I love.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 12:13

When it's, when it's about your kid, your client, your patient, your friend, your sister. When it's a defined problem outside of you that is for someone else and you have a role to play. Many of these women are like, "I have, I have no problem saying my client absolutely does not agree to those terms, and we will be taking you to court," and in a very forceful and, and passionate and very professional way.

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Molly Claire 12:40

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 12:41

When it's about a kid who needs something at school, when it's about a friend, they can be very, very clear and very direct. And so it's this irrational, like why is this happening, that when it's about me or what I need, or when I feel like, and here's what it is, when a relationship is potentially at stake for me then it feels risky.

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Molly Claire 13:07

Yeah. And why wouldn't it, right?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 13:09

That's right.

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Molly Claire 13:09

Why wouldn't it feel that way to us? Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 13:12

Because part of what has made her capable is everybody admiring her, everybody thinking she's amazing. She doesn't disappoint people. So what if, what if they don't admire me anymore after we have this conversation? What if what I ask for is disappointing or somehow breaks something between us?

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Molly Claire 13:32

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 13:33

What, what will I do?

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Molly Claire 13:34

Mm-hmm. Right? It's that fear of the loss of connection.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 13:38

That's right.

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Molly Claire 13:38

That fear of rejection.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 13:40

Yeah.

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Molly Claire 13:40

So of course it feels so big.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 13:42

Of course.

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Molly Claire 13:43

Yeah, yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 13:44

And those other elements just are not present in the speaking up that she does for other people.

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Molly Claire 13:50

Right, right. And not to mention, I think the vulnerability that it takes for a lot of us to, to say if we have a need I think. You know? Because what is, what is a need? Well, I'm... It is, right, must be too sensitive, or is it a weakness, right? And so I think there's a vulnerability to it as well.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 14:13

There 100% is.

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Molly Claire 14:14

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 14:14

And when we sense that vulnerability, I mean, for the, for the women that I work with and for me in, in particular, this is, you know, a long time ago now, but saying that I needed something literally felt like standing naked in front of another person-

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Molly Claire 14:30

Yeah

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Sara Bybee Fisk 14:30

... and just crossing my fingers and hoping that they didn't attack or tell me that I was wrong, or tell me that I really didn't need that, that I misunderstood that, that I was selfish. There's all kinds of programming that we should name. Let's, let's just name that now. So from the time that we are young, girls and, or humans who come out, you know, socialized as, as female, and humans who are socialized as male, for a little while we get exactly the same programming, which is we have to learn how to please the big people in our lives.

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Molly Claire 15:07

Yeah, yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 15:07

Because they take care of us, right?

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Molly Claire 15:10

Yep.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 15:10

Babies are completely dependent, and so what they learn to do is they learn to read the facial expressions, the tone of voice, the body language of the people they're dependent on so they can get care, they can get taken care of.

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Molly Claire 15:25

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 15:25

You have kids. I have kids. Everybody listening, maybe you have a child or you've seen one on TV, right? But when a baby smiles, what do all the adults in the room do?

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Molly Claire 15:35

They smile. They eat it up.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 15:37

Oh, my gosh

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Molly Claire 15:37

They love it.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 15:37

She's smiling. They love it. And they light up, and all of those mirror neurons running around in even a baby's head are like, oh, they like that. They like that.

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Molly Claire 15:47

Right.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 15:47

And so baby does it again and again.

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Molly Claire 15:49

Right.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 15:49

And then they learn to wave, and they learn to say dada and mama, and all of that is reinforced by that loving, beautiful, hopefully connected relationship between a completely dependent child and a bigger, more capable adult.

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Molly Claire 16:05

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 16:06

And then they also learn what the big people don't like.

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Molly Claire 16:10

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 16:11

I remember sitting with my daughter, and she was, you know, playing around with her hands and hitting, and she slapped my face. It was not intentional, but I grabbed her wrist and I said, "No," and I pushed her body away from mine.

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Molly Claire 16:26

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 16:27

What did she do? Dissolved into tears.

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Molly Claire 16:30

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 16:31

Yeah.

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Molly Claire 16:31

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 16:31

Because she had been punished for doing that, and that's how she learned. You know, and I'm not saying that that's what I did was either good or bad, but th- they all, we also learn as children what the big people don't like.

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Molly Claire 16:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 16:47

And then we learn what gets us rewarded and what gets us punished.

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Molly Claire 16:53

Yeah, yeah. You know, and one of the things that, like as you were talking, one of my, one of my very favorite books that I just think is so important for anyone... Well, I think everyone should read it, but I'm... You know, I definitely gain so much from it personally, but it's called, um, Running on Empty: How to Overco- Do you know this?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 17:13

No.

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Molly Claire 17:13

Overcoming Your Emotional Childhood Neglect.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 17:16

Yeah.

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Molly Claire 17:16

And it specifically speaks to that emotional neglect, and, and of course, in this book it's talking about specific examples of when this can happen, right? A parent has, you know, is an addict, alcoholic.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 17:30

Mm-hmm.

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Molly Claire 17:30

A parent is, you know, all of these. But in what I've come to learn and in the work I do as well is we see there are times that everyone is lacking in support for their emotional needs, right? So we can all gain something from it. But the reason I bring this book up is I'm thinking about even this aspect of when, uh, when a child is alone in what they're dealing with and on their own, right? And they're having emotions or they're having needs, and if we think about this, I ha- I'm having some angst, right? I'm needing some help. I'm feeling overwhelmed as a child. Well, I don't like the way that feels, right?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 18:12

Yeah.

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Molly Claire 18:12

And if I'm alone and there's no one there for me to kind of bring these feelings to get support, what happens internally is I feel like, oh, I'm feeling bad. This must be my fault. We create this mechanism of turning it on ourselves. So that's the other thing, right? It can be we take those cues from the outside, and also, I guess there's a whole bunch of ways, right, that we can get the message that our needs are a problem and that we've gotta shut them down.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 18:41

That's absolutely right.

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Molly Claire 18:42

Yeah

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Sara Bybee Fisk 18:42

Because in that moment, when a child has been punished for something or is feeling rejected or disconnected, there are only two options: either I'm bad-

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Molly Claire 18:52

Mm-hmm

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Sara Bybee Fisk 18:52

... or the big people are bad.

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Molly Claire 18:54

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 18:55

And the big people can't be bad because they're the ones who are taking care of me.

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Molly Claire 19:00

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 19:00

And so all of this is not consciously thought through.

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Molly Claire 19:05

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 19:05

But you have a child who has all of the emotion, right, but none of the skills or none of the logical... I mean, can you imagine how weird it would be if a four-year-old is sitting at a table and Dad comes in, he's had a bad day at work, he slams things around, and the four-year-old says, "You know, Dad, it looks like you're struggling with your emotional regulation." "And I know that this is about you, not me, and so I'm just gonna let you calm down, and I'm just gonna color over here until you're ready to interact with me as you should.” A four-year-old just gets scared and starts to worry they've done something. Is it my problem? Is it me? And then tries to make up for it, usually, with good behavior.

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Molly Claire 19:45

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 19:47

That's when they're gonna go over and give Dad a hug or try to... I mean, you know, I, I had a client who told me that every night her dad would come home, and she would go over and take off his shoes and rub his feet.

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Molly Claire 19:58

Oh.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 19:58

Because that's, when she was a girl, that's how she calmed her dad down after a long day of, of work, and he didn't have the tools to regulate.

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Molly Claire 20:06

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 20:06

And so all of us were raised by people who, to one degree or another-

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Molly Claire 20:12

Are imperfect, right?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 20:13

... are imperfect, and they were doing the best that they could, but that does result in exactly the situation that you talked about, where you're a young child, you have no frame of reference for all of these intense emotions that you're feeling, and so how you make sense of it is, "There must be something wrong with me."

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Molly Claire 20:33

Exactly, exactly.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 20:35

And for girls especially, that gets reinforced, and that's where, like, our gender programming diverges a little bit, because humans who are raised as boys, they kind of have some off-ramps of that experience. They are told that their emotions are different than girls. Girls get called dramatic. Girls get called overly sensitive. Girls get called, um, you know, too much, too... And for boys, we're like, "Well, boys will be boys. That's how they act, and they're gonna grow up to be great leaders." And so I'm generalizing here.

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Molly Claire 21:11

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 21:12

But in general, boys are told to suppress anything that is not anger or you know, th- they can be happy and they, and they can be angry, and no sadness, no tenderness, no sensitivity, and that's a different problem.

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Molly Claire 21:28

It's a different problem.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 21:30

That's a very-

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Molly Claire 21:31

Another episode.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 21:31

Yes, that's a very different problem.

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Molly Claire 21:32

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 21:32

But girls are, are programmed to believe that their job is to please everyone else.

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Molly Claire 21:39

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 21:39

That's what a good girl does.

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Molly Claire 21:42

Yes, and be there in... It's like this is why so often as women, we define ourselves by how we relate to other people, right? We define ourselves, we describe ourselves in roles and in what our relationship, uh, relationship is with others or relationship of support is with others.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 22:02

That's right, and that's exactly why in a moment when you would want to speak up about something in a relationship, it feels so scary.

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Molly Claire 22:11

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 22:11

Because if I define myself by the fact, let's say, that I want to tell a friend that something she did hurt my feelings.

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Molly Claire 22:18

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 22:19

But if having good friendships and being a good friend defines me, and speaking up might damage that now I'm really stuck, because I'm getting at the core of what allows me to think I'm a good person, I'm a good friend, I'm a good girl.

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Molly Claire 22:34

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 22:35

Good mom, good wife.

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Molly Claire 22:36

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 22:36

All the rest. And so that good girl programming just kind of keeps us constantly with attention focused outward. What do you need? How can I help you? Are you okay? Do you need something? And that becomes part of that capability.

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Molly Claire 22:50

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 22:50

We're just constantly showing up, doing things for other people, achieving, being productive.

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Molly Claire 22:57

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 22:57

And that's how we grow up.

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Molly Claire 22:58

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So I hope all of you listening are noticing the pieces of this that you relate to, and hopefully also, you know, noticing maybe come, having come to mind some areas where you may want to be able to speak up a little bit more, right? Maybe speak up about your needs, maybe speak up about some boundaries that you have, because I think it, it also can be easier to focus on helping other people because then we don't have to focus on whatever is hard for us, right? So, so, um, so we know this shows up for us, right? No one is really immune from this. Uh, we know there's specific conditioning for, for girls. Um, so talk a little bit about, um... Well, a few things. I'll put it to you, Sara, 'cause I know that you wanted to talk about some of this, the three steps that you help your clients with, and I also know that you've brought, and maybe it's related to that as well, that you've brought parts work into the work that you do. So I just kind of want to throw it over to you. Um, where, where do, where do we go from here? Do we, do we understand more about our parts? Do we move to these three steps? What do we actually do with this once we see the struggle is there to speak up?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 24:18

Let me give you just one other thing for, for people listening to think about this.

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Molly Claire 24:24

Yeah, please.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 24:24

Because there's a really specific process that is kind of invisible until you catch it.

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Molly Claire 24:31

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 24:31

And I call it good girl math, and what that is, it's the internal calculation of should I bring this up? How should I bring this up? What are the right words? What if she thinks I'm difficult? What if I'm wrong? What if I've misunderstood something? What if she pulls away? It's all of this internal ruminating that is trying to calculate the right way to bring something up.

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Molly Claire 24:59

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 25:00

And it costs so much time and energy.

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Molly Claire 25:03

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 25:04

On average, when I ask women if they have a conversation or conversations that they have been avoiding, just give me a baseline of, like, how many hours a week do you think you are doing this? And most of them say it's between three to five hours a day.

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Molly Claire 25:20

Hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 25:21

Now, they're not sitting in a chair just ruminating. They're driving to work. They're in the shower. It's waking them up at 2:00 AM. They're, you know, thinking about it when they're doing other things, but it's this constant calculation that costs so much time and energy. Because if, if you're on the low end, three hours a day and you times that by the math for the week, the day that's 1,095 hours a year.

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Molly Claire 25:49

And I just, the energy just is what keeps coming to my mind, right?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 25:53

That's it. That's it.

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Molly Claire 25:53

What a stress, what a worry. Should I say this? How do I say this? Are they gonna be upset? What are they gonna think about me? Is it okay? Is it not?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 26:01

Yes.

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Molly Claire 26:02

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 26:03

And the other thing that happens is while you're doing all that calculating, well, you're trying to calculate something that can't be calculated, 'cause you're trying to calculate another person's reaction.

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Molly Claire 26:13

Right. Which we have no idea.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 26:16

Which, and I know logically we all can agree that I can't control another person, but it's because the part of you that's trying to calculate it is still little, and we'll get into that in a minute.

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Molly Claire 26:30

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 26:30

It's a younger version of you that is so worried about the other person's reaction.

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Molly Claire 26:35

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 26:35

And while all that calculating is going on, time passes. The problem usually doesn't get better, and sometimes even gets worse.

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Molly Claire 26:44

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 26:45

And so the relationship that you are trying to protect by your silence sometimes is actually getting worse.

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Molly Claire 26:53

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 26:54

And it now it feels even more dangerous, even more risky to bring it up because things just compound.

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Molly Claire 27:00

Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.I am, I'm just such a believer that not talking about things is one of the worst things you can do for a relationship, in part because you're creating a pattern of not being willing to talk about it.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 27:17

Mm.

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Molly Claire 27:17

And that's, like, the opposite of true intimacy in relationship, right?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 27:22

That is it.

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Molly Claire 27:22

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 27:23

Yeah.

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Molly Claire 27:23

And I ha- have, like, for me, it's like I have to really remember that because otherwise, right, it's easy to think, "Well, it's probably not that big of a deal," or, but it is a big deal.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 27:34

It's, it's so illogical, and this is how I talk about it with my clients. Conflict is the door to intimacy, connection, and vulnerability.

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Molly Claire 27:44

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 27:45

And it's like, it's the door that has, like, 10,000 red flags on it, and so it doesn't make a lot of sense that having this hard conversation will actually bring us closer or we will get very clear on where we are.

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Molly Claire 27:59

That's right. That's right. It will bring clarity, and I think sometimes, right, it doesn't mean that having these conversations is always gonna feel good or, good or easy. Sometimes having a conversation, we may hear something that we don't wanna hear, right? We may hear an honest truth that, well, we wish that weren't true, but isn't it better to know and to see, know what you're working with, and then work through it?

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Sara Bybee Fisk 28:22

And then you can make better decisions. Let me give you a quick example about that. I left the church that my parents raised me in.

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Molly Claire 28:31

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 28:31

And oftentimes I make this joke that I was a 42-year-old woman still going to church 'cause I was afraid to disappoint my parents, and it's not actually a joke. It's very true.

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Molly Claire 28:40

Yeah, yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 28:42

And I, for years, I created this barrier between us because I wasn't being honest with them about where I was going and what I was doing.

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Molly Claire 28:50

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 28:50

I was pretending to still be this kind of faithful churchgoer that I thought they wanted.

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Molly Claire 28:57

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 28:58

And there was distance between us because I could not tell them the truth.

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Molly Claire 29:04

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 29:05

And when I finally did, it was the most difficult conversation I had ever had.

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Molly Claire 29:10

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 29:10

And it gave me so much freedom and so much ability now to talk about anything.

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Molly Claire 29:18

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 29:18

And so fast-forward a couple years later, and it's my birthday, and my dad has scheduled some church duties on my birthday.

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Molly Claire 29:26

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 29:27

And so when I called him, we always got together, we always had dinner, and when I said, "Okay, well, I'll see you for my birthday dinner on, you know, Sunday," he said, "Oh, I, I have these things to do." And I was like, "Oh, um, well, it's my birthday, so could you reschedule those things?" And he's like, "Well, they're expecting it. I don't really, you know, da, da, da." And I said, "Okay. Um, so Dad, it sounds like what you're saying is you're not willing to reschedule those." And he's like, "Oh, well, I, everybody's depending on me, da, da, da." I said, "Dad, it's fine if you're not willing, but is that what I'm hearing, that you're just, you're not, you're unwilling to reschedule these things?" And he said, "Yeah, I guess I'm unwilling to reschedule these things."

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Molly Claire 30:09

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 30:09

And I said, "Okay. All right. Thanks for letting me know." And the conversation ended.

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Molly Claire 30:15

Yeah, yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 30:16

So I would've never been able to be that clear and get the information back from him, like, okay, so he's unwilling, so now what do I want to do with that? Well, first I bawled my eyes out because I was very hurt.

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Molly Claire 30:32

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 30:32

And I realized, you know what? I have been really trying to have a close relationship with him. I've been really trying almost in some ways to make up for the fact that I had left the church.

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Molly Claire 30:43

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 30:44

And I don't have to anymore because the amount of effort that I am putting into this does not match the amount of effort that he's putting into this.

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Molly Claire 30:53

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 30:53

And so now I know, now we're clear.

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Molly Claire 30:56

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 30:56

And I can make a different decision about what I wanna do with that energy.

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Molly Claire 31:00

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's so, it's, it's so true. Like, having that, having that open, honest communication and finding out things that don't necessarily feel good, they're so hard, and they do bring such clarity and freedom, a restored energy sometimes.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 31:22

Yeah.

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Molly Claire 31:23

Yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 31:23

And then other times you find out the opposite.

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Molly Claire 31:25

Right, right.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 31:27

Where you're, you're, you know, other situations where you say, like, "This is what I need and want from you," and the other person is like, "I totally wanna give that to you."

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Molly Claire 31:34

Mm-hmm.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 31:34

"And we were just having a misunderstanding." And then you have a pathway to more closeness and more connectedness.

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Molly Claire 31:41

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

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Sara Bybee Fisk 31:42

So let's talk about how we do that.

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Molly Claire 31:45

Yes, let's do it.